From the Washington Post:
BEIRUT, July 13 -- Israel bombed Beirut's airport, a Hezbollah television station and other targets in Lebanon Thursday and imposed a blockade on Lebanon's ports and airspace in a stepped-up campaign to force the release of two soldiers abducted by Hezbollah in a brazen border infiltration Wednesday.
The airstrikes destroyed runways at Beirut Rafiq Hariri International Airport, forcing the closure of the modern, $500-million facility that had been considered an emblem of Lebanon's post-civil war reconstruction.
Bombs also targeted Hezbollah institutions, such as the television station in Beirut's predominantly Shiite southern suburbs; and key infrastructure sites -- roads, bridges and power stations
Israel also moved deeper into the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, killing 23 Palestinians, most of them civilians, hospital officials in Gaza said.
However:
At a news conference in Germany Thursday morning, President Bush said Israel has the right to defend itself and declared that Syria "needs to be held to account" for supporting and harboring Hezbollah.
Then:
In Brussels, the European Union criticized the Israeli attacks, saying it was "greatly concerned about the disproportionate use of force by Israel in Lebanon in response to attacks by Hezbollah on Israel."
Haaretz is reporting:
Israel Air Force helicopter gunships late Thursday unleashed missiles on Beirut international airport, setting fuel tanks ablaze, in the second attack on Lebanon's only international air facility, Lebanese security officials and the Israel Defense Forces said.
Israel is a head in the numbers of those that have been killed in both Lebanon and in Palestine, Israel is the one with the military power and yet somehow this is not Israel's responsibilty. They were "made" to do this in some sort of self defense? I'm having a hard time buying that one. The majority of the people killed by Israel had nothing to do with either kidnapping of soldiers or sending bombs into Israel.
Who's going to stop Israel? The obvious answer is no one, and for our president to be trying to justify this? Sends the message that we in the US don't care about the lives of anyone in the middle east unless they are Israeli.
UPDATE: Oh gee, I've been called a "moonbat", it appears via my trackback that Environmental Republican doesn't like my post. Hopefully no one will tell Karl since supposedly I'm working for him.
:-)
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48 comments:
Israelis should stop Israel. All the military display of power is doing is making more extremists who will in turn kill more Israelis.
Of course, now that I have said that, I am an antiSemite who has forgotten the Holocaust. There comes a time though, when the past no longer justifies your present actions. I find it hard to believe that Israel is being oppressed by the Palestinians.
I hope and pray that Isreal wipes out every single Hezbollah, Hamas member, their families, their neighbors, and their neighbors neighbors. Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organizations being funded by countries like Syria and Iran. These are the same countries who not only oppose the U.S. every step of the way but help support the insurgents in Iraq, and support terrorism globally. Quite frankly I hope Israel does what our country won't do because we have become to weak because of pathetic liberals. I hope Israel not only wipes both terrorist groups off the face of the earth but that Israel tells the United Nations to pack sand up their asses. The U.N. is a joke, Koffi Annan is a criminal. Go Isreal destroy all the terrorists, remember, the same ones that celebrated on 9/11. Oh, I am sorry the pathetic liberals in this country forgot about that.
Oh sheesh anonymous - a small group of children who celebrate infront of just about anything that they are told candy will be handed out joined by a few who don't like America for some wrong and some right reasons celebrating in Palestine is not quite validation to murder that many people. Hate to break it to you but there are innocent people who are dying and the largest numbers of those who are dying are not Israeli.
Anonymous has upset me. I would normally curse and use unfriendly names, but I am a kinder gentler person now.
Does anyone really believe that you can kill all the members of a terrorist organization without creating more members or new organizations? That is an argument for the ignorant and only works on other ignorant people.
This pathetic liberal served in the Army and had friends who ran into the Pentagon to help pull people out on 9/11. Frinds that I helped get stationed there with the help of my commanders and others I served with. And I have the balls to sign my name.
Scott Grother
I always find it ironic when someone suggests wiping out a whole group of people, yet we went to war in Iraq because someone was killing people along with the whole WMD farce but Saddam was killing innocent people.
I don't have balls but...
Lisa Renee Ward
:-)
Everyone can have balls. That was just the closest I was going to come to profanity. And I didn't think referencing my 3 nipples would have made any sense
The unknown poster might help themselves by not calling half of the country pathetic.
I think Israel is trying to defend themselves from rocket attacks in their own territory. Bush's rhetoric is correct (so far) that Israel has a right to defend itself. Give him time though, he is so stupid he will just screw it up.
Hoping Israel kills a bunch of little kids is sick and wrong, but I do support their right to use massive retaliation against a terror group shooting rockets into their territory. Lebanon should move in to arrest the political leaders and Israel should back off until they do so.
What would you do if the Canadians or Mexicans harbored a group of people who were shooting rockets into North Dakota or Texas?
9-11…..hmmm….lets see if I can “remember it.” Yes, I remember it, we were going to get Bin-Laden. We didn’t, then we went in and did Iran and Israel’s bidding in Iraq, which had absolutely no connection to 9-11.
-Steve
US Air Force Veteran
Nice post, Lisa. I have ruminating about this overnight, and I will be pontificating on my blog later on a similar subject, but I wanted to thank you for letting the world know that not every American is an O'Reilly-esque "blow the hell out of Lebanon and Gaza" type.
We all care for the lives of all involved, just in our matter of settling the dispute once and for all. There's no peace treaty that will fix it. Peace treaties are meant to be torn up when it suits.
You have to ask What would Tony Soprano do?
There is only one option. CRUSH the opposition in the most brutal manner possible. This is war! Nations have the option of seeing the blood of their nation slowly seep into the battlefield over a period of years or they can wipe out all thoughts in the enemy's mind that they can compete on the battlefield.
I am all for attacking those shifty Canadians. If for no other reason, so that we can get Molson's Canadian cheaper.
The Molsons remark is funny. I can take a joke.
How about putting yourself in the Israelis position for a minute. That was the point I was making. You can laugh it off if you want to. Just as you said earlier in your own post, its easy for someone to call you an anti-semite for your position- which i didnt do- just as the easy thing to do is to make a joke out of a point someone else is trying to make.
Steve, how about you putting yourself in the position of Palestine? People there felt that things were so bad that Hamas was who they turned to.
Imagine having every movement controlled and having your standard of living reduced from a miserable existance to one of almost impossibility. Israel's continued pattern of punishing people that are not responsible solves nothing. All it does is increase hatred, anger and breed new terrorists as well as kill more innocent people along with a few guilty ones every now and then.
There is a difference between a legitimate self defense and a deliberate act of escalation.
You people are wacked - No one should stop Israel - Whenever terrorist strike Israel no one knows who is really responsible. Now Hamas acts as if they have nothing to do with the kidnappings - naturally Lebanon has nothingt o do with Hezbullah. You should know that Israel drops flyers and uses radio to warn civilians before they strike terrorist sites - I do not think that the Muslim terrorists do the same.
Did you ever stop to consider anonymous that even though Israel drops the flyers that those people have no place to go? When Israel closes the borders and the gates they are trapped. So while I agree on the surface it appears they are more humane in telling people "hey leave or you might die" they are not giving people many options as where they can go to be safe. I'd also point out that a bomb from a helicopter or a tank or an airplane can do a hell of a lot of damage. Then of course the whole bombing of power plants so people not only do not have power but access to water...as well as blocking access to food and medical help. Sometimes I wonder how many of you really realize what life in the Gaza is like.
Do you have any idea how many people who are innocent have to deal with their homes and whatever they cannot move being destroyed? That doesn't even count those who feel so trapped they don't leave and then have family members injured or killed.
If realizing that is being wacked? Then sure I'm wacked.
I have put myself in the position of Israel before and I only joke about Canada because the situation would only be similar to me if we occupied everywhere in Canada but PEI and then acted like they were the ones in the wrong. My only point is that Israel is far from an innocent in a sea of sinners.
Are terrorist attacks right, no. But is there a big difference between Israel using war planes and attack helicopters on targets where civilains die and missile or artillery attacks? I suppose the answer depends on how you see things. I think both sides are in the wrong and am tired of both of their attitudes towards the situation.
I agree that Hamas and Hezbollah need to be destroyed, but someone also needs to slap Israel.
israel needs a good pat on the back and a we have got your back from the us. its about time somebody stood up and said enough is enough. when will you head in the sand oh please cant we all get along crybabies learn that when a man sticks a gun in your face you can either die or kill the asshole.
I do feel sorry for the Palestinians, on many levels. I am sorry that they have leaders who make such poor choices (even worse than dummy W.) and it isnt right that any innocent should have to die. They were displaced from their land in 1948, so I see where you are coming from, Lisa.
I simply disagree with you on this instance. I think if it is legitimate for us to pursue the Taliban in Afghanistan (which it clearly would have been- unfortunately W. and his band gave up the fight to invade Iraq), then it is legitimate to pursue Hezbullah in Lebanon.
…and really lets be honest, since 1994 hasn’t Israel tried repeatedly to reach an accord with the Palestinians?
I hear you Rev the comparison with Canada wasnt exactly perfect.
Were you here we could have a Molsons and talk it over...on me....
I just think we Americans lost a lot of moral high ground about killing civilians with the ill advised invasion of Iraq.
Kate,
I am gravely concerned about MSNBC and CNN harping on the Iranian connection (I wont watch FOX). I smell a rat, and it looks exactly like the run-up on cable TV in Iraq.
Speaking of cable, maybe Bush will get his ass off the golf cart with Putin over there and try to help out. Wait on second thought hopefully they will stay on the golf cart…
me4,
"Of course, now that I have said that, I am an antiSemite who has forgotten the Holocaust. There comes a time though, when the past no longer justifies your present actions."
What I don't understand is how can the Holocaust be used to justify the oppression of anyone, let alone a people who had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Unless I'm seriously misinformed, the Holocaust happened in Germany and was committed by Nazis...how does it involve Palestine and Israel's other neighbors at all?
anonymous,
Genocide, which is exactly what you are advocating, is never justifiable, no matter who is doing it. Genocide is evil.
I'm neither a liberal nor a pacifist and I'm still mad as hell about 9/11, but I also am not a hate-filled bigot who would ever advocate or support genocide in any manner whatsoever.
And, I am also willing to sign my name.
Stephanie Crist
Steve,
"…and really lets be honest, since 1994 hasn’t Israel tried repeatedly to reach an accord with the Palestinians?"
Some Israelis have, but far from all. More than a few Israelis want Palestine under their and to eliminate those who currently occupy that land. And it's interesting to note that the more "freedom" Israel gives Palestine the more more resources and opportunities to make a living the take away.
Steve,
"I just think we Americans lost a lot of moral high ground about killing civilians with the ill advised invasion of Iraq."
When it comes to Muslims, I don't think America ever had the moral high ground. It's interesting how we support the terrorists that suit our purposes and then wash our hands of them when we're through. OBL and Hussein come to mind rather quickly there.
Moral high ground would involve acknowledging that the ends don't always justify the means, and neither the US, nor Israel, nor Israel's Islamic neighbors are very good at that. Well, frankly, I can't think of a nation that is at the moment.
However, I will ask you two questions. If you recognize the relavance, perhaps you will understand better.
Are the Irish evil? Should England own Ireland?
Followed Steves link to this discussion, thanks Steve.
If i can add my two pennys. The biggest problem in the area is that A hits B so B hits A so A hits B...
Eventually if there is to be a peace that is acceptable to both sides there has to be negotions. As the Northern Irish situation and South Africa both show these have to take place between those with the guns other wise their irrelevant.
The present situation is moving us further and further away from that. Also some of the back ground music that i'm hearing out of American neo-cons about this being a great chance to widen the war against Iran and Iraq chill me to the bone.
As said above if there is to be any hope it has to be that there is some one on both sides who are willing to negotiate and have the power to stop the guns. IMHO while there have been peace moves by sections on both sides there have been rejectionist fronts in both camps. In addition i do feel that while the Isreali state is a choesive whole, it has a recognized government that does have authority on the Palestinian side they do not have this. It is riven by faction and any attempt to create a civil authority and instiutions have been undermined by Isreali, and yes US, policy.
I think that Isreal is afraid, understandably, to let a centralized set of institutions develop with which it can negotiate becuse it will lose what it sees as its position of strength. This has shaped its policies to those countries around it as well. It knows that if the Lebanese army tried to disarm Hezbullah it would create civil war and encourage Syria to come back in.
All attempts to get Hezbullah and Hamas in to the civil and democratic process has been undermined by the Isreali, US and EU policies. I don't support, like or approve of terrorism such as Hamas etc. But i do see that unless you negotiate with the guys with the guns your wasting your breath.
Sorry the above should have obviously read as:
"Also some of the back ground music that i'm hearing out of American neo-cons about this being a great chance to widen the war against Iran and Syria chill me to the bone.
Stephanie,
I love the irony of you asking me about the Irish (Im 85% percent Irish). No, and I don’t go around calling people evil. Its stupid to do so. Should England own Ireland? for the most part they don’t. You lost me with the comparison. Isreal isnt seeking to occupy Lebanon. They want three things:
1.) the attacks to stop
2.) the soldiers returned unconditionally
3.) Lebanon to reign in Hezbollah.
That’s what the Israeli official on MSNBC said last night. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
It's interesting how we support the terrorists that suit our purposes and then wash our hands of them when we're through. OBL and Hussein come to mind rather quickly there.
Let’s clarify something here about our “support” of Bin-Laden. Actually, Bin-Laden was a pretty obscure figure back in 1988 when we were supporting the Mujahideen. There has been tremendous blowback from that policy and a lesson to be learned is that there IS value in an isolationist foreign policy at times. However, I am not going to lie, as a very young man I thought supporting the fight against the Soviets in the eighties over there was the right thing to do and I still do.
Otherwise you are dead on about Saddam. That’s clearly a case where we armed a madman, and many of the atrocities he committed “against his own people” happened in ’87 and ’88….just a few dozen months after we were selling them Bell Helicopters- along with the west…..
Ok, Gerbil I think you are also hitting the right buttons about peace negotiations and seeing that the guys with the guns are willing participants. I think you are right that this is where peace would have to happen.
Lebanon needs to bring in Egypt and Saudi Arabia to help end the thing by:
1.) Agreeing that it will not tolerate a group of any stripe operating within its borders carrying out unauthorized attacks.
2.) Rounding up the leaders of said movement and getting them out of the country.
3.) Putting forth a good faith effort to find the kidnapped soldiers.
4.) Demand Israel pay reparations for damage to infrastructure.
…and of course about the only thing we as citizens can do here in the US and there in the UK is ask that our governments stop sending foreign aid to Israel if they don’t come to the table.
I think you would be more effective getting drunk than you would writing your congressman. They don’t listen to us anyway.
Steve, what you sugest, getting the other countries in the region to disavow groups such as Hamas etc won't work. Many of the states have little legitimacy among there people. When pushed to become democratic and given the choice Palestinans voted for Hamas we then told them that was the wrong kind of democracy and set about dismantling any vestigae of civil authority, i agree Hamas for not moving to the middle as well bear some responsibility.
Hamas and Hezbullah ARE the guys with the guns. At the end of the day to get any semblance of peace you have to talk to the nutters with the gun. If you do that you can isolate the true rejectionsist front from those who do see advantage to be gained from peace talks.
If you want my true view i don't think Isreal has yet negotiated in good faith and i don't think the Arab governments can deliver peace becuase they don't control the guns (despite what the media says). I do think the current response from Isreal is excessive and dangerous. As John Major (ex British Prime Minister) says, if Isreal cuts the head off the Hydra that is Hezzbullah another head will appear. Every bomb that Isreal is dropping and every person they kill is recruiting more people into the same organisations its trying to destroy. Just as much as every sucide bomb and rocket increases intransegencies within Isreal. The difference is that Isreal is in a position to act smarter.
G.,
Maybe something will happen today. CNN is reporting Lebanon is meeting with Hezbollah today.
As to Israel's level of force- this is their policy- massive retaliation. Why would they move away from it when it has worked for them in the past?
One thing is for sure. No nation should be expected to lay down and curl up in the fetal position when it is getting hammered by a terrorist group who, as a policy, wants the nation to CEASE TO EXIST.
BTW, President Bush is "urging restraint" on the part of Israel.
Coming from him, that means a lot.
I think Saudi Arabia has been known to back HAMAS in the Palestinian conflict. At least with money. I think Saddam and the Saudis have been the biggest contributors.
I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, and if it has to go across borders to do so, that is fine. I just think they have a tendency to go past the point og attcking those who actually attack them and get a lot of "innocent" people in the process. Collateral damage is part of war. When you start getting higher death tolls among civilians though, you start to lose the people who you need to see your point to help stop all the death.
I agree that the Palestinians have been failed by their leaders, but it was also Israeli fundamentalists who assassinated their PM because they thought he was giving too much away. All nations have their crazies, unfortunately in that area of the world, the crazies somehow end up in power.
Not like here, where the voters keep level headed people in office who think rationally before any actions
Steve,
"I love the irony of you asking me about the Irish (Im 85% percent Irish)."
Then I suggest you read up on the history there, especially since you didn't understand the comparison. News flash: Ireland won its independence from England by 1) using terrorists tactics, and 2) negotiating peace and freedom after they gained legitimate political power. That is exactly what Hammas was trying to do before the proverbial shit hit the fan.
"Isreal isnt seeking to occupy Lebanon."
Not currently, no. At least, not in a manner that is particularly apparent at the moment. However, they did try to occupy Lebanon, because it was part of their Promised Land. Thus Hezbollah was born. And they do occupy Palestine, and thus Hammas was born; which is the initial situation that started this mess.
"1.) the attacks to stop"
The Israelis are the ones doing the attacking. They can stop any time they so choose.
"2.) the soldiers returned unconditionally"
Not going to happen. That's not how it works. Prisoner exchange is what's being demanded, as far as I'm told (my trust for the honest reporting on this is minimal), and that is an appropriate, diplomatic move. This is called listening to both sides of a conflict. Israel wants it their way and their way alone, without any form of compromise...thus the fighting continues.
"3.) Lebanon to reign in Hezbollah"
This is totally appropriate, but Israel has to be willing to negotiate with Lebanon for that to happen. They are obviously not willing to negotiate. They are only interested in bullying.
(Sorry, Lisa, the deleted comment was mine -- I was still signed in as Mark from messing with his template. Arg.)
;-)
Steve,
"Let’s clarify something here about our “support” of Bin-Laden..."
Yes, but he was also trained by the US. How this turned out... I'm not expecting our government to have hindsight when they make their decisions. I understand the reason we did what we did (at least as best as I can without access to classified information) and to a certain extent I agree, but saying we don't negotiate with terrorists is a bald face lie. We simply negotiate with the terrorists we want to and call them good, and call all the other terrorists we're not using bad. It is said we no longer do this, that it has been against US policy to do so ever since 9/11. Personally, I doubt the government has actually learned that lesson yet, if ever they will.
"...as a very young man I thought supporting the fight against the Soviets in the eighties over there was the right thing to do and I still do."
Being still yet a rather young woman, I supported fighting in Iraq and I still do. I'll put it this way: The North won our own Civil War relatively quickly. As far as wars go, especially the kind of war we were fighting, four years is really not that long. They did it through superior supplies and excellent strategy. The generals on both sides tried to (though they sometimes failed) keep a very strict reign on their troops to ensure the war was fought as honorably as a war can be fought. The US Civil War was handled very well, imo.
However, the Reconstruction era sucked. In the vaccuum of Lincoln's absense, the Reconstruction went haywire and the Northerners forgot that the Southerners were their brothers and canabalized and raped their resources for personal gain. It was an atrocious way to treat their fellow citizens, and something that Lincoln had every intention to prevent.
During the Iraq war, we won the war decisively, but again, when it came to reconstruction, we sucked. Instead of trying to unite the various peoples of Iraq, we intentionally disenfranchised and subjugated an entire segment of the population, in order to give those who had been oppressed the opportunity to get their come-uppance (presumably a bid to ensure their support), and now we are facing a bloody insurgency. While that may not have been wholly preventable, it was irresponsible and poor strategy, not to mention inhumane, to feed it the way we did. And it seems that now that it's started we can't help but feed it even more.
Other than that, I still support the Iraq war, because I do believe Saddam needed to be taken out and I do believe it was our responsibility (due to our past relations in keeping him in power, and our failure to take him out in the Gulf war) to do so. But selling out not only the Iraqis (which would have been bad enough), but our own soldiers to profit Bush's buddies... That pisses me off more than I can properly and appropriately express.
I do support the Iraq war. And I definitely support the soldiers who are giving it their all, mistakes and all, but I do not support the way Bush is handling it and I doubt I share his reasons for why the Iraq war was necessary -- but it's hard to tell for sure considering we've never really gotten a straight answer about that.
My point is, that the United States has a history of finding terror tactics acceptable when it's being used by "our" side, i.e. people and groups we choose to ally ourselves with, and to call all other terrorists madmen who cannot be negotiated with. While I readily admit the leaders may in fact be madmen, the majority of the people involved are not and can in fact be negotiated with in a relatively civil manner if the effort is made.
Whatever you call it, targeting civilians is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's Hammas who does it, or Hezbollah, or Israel (fliers or no fliers); it's still wrong. Targeting soldiers/militants isn't too nifty either, but at least they stand a chance. Most civilians do not. There are people here in the US (elsewhere as well) who say it's oh-so-wrong for the Islamic militants to target Israeli civilians, yet say in the very next breath that Israel should kill 'em all. As evidenced by some anonymous commenters on this very post. The hypocrisy of it reeks, and is something I find utterly offensive. Of course, it goes both ways, as there are liberals who say that the Islamic militants who are killing their own civilians are freedom-fighters, and our soldiers are the terrorists. Either way, it makes absolutely no logical sense to make such distinctions. Targeting civilians is wrong no matter who does it!!!
And, in the end, refusing to negotiate only begets more conflict, not peace.
Steve,
"Ok, Gerbil I think you are also hitting the right buttons about peace negotiations..."
Ah, and now I feel like I've wasted my breath.
;-)
Hat tip to you!
Gerbil,
"Many of the states have little legitimacy among there people."
True, but examining the reason for that (and our/Israel's part in the reason) is important, as well.
1) They are often corrupt, as most governments are to at least some degree.
2) They often do not have the power, influence, and/or resources to actually improve the lives of their citizens; which is directly caused by the way the US and Israel (amongst other nations) handle the situation.
Hammas is valued by it's people, because they raise funds from outside Palestine and use the funds, in part, to feed, clothe, shelter and provide medical care to and for the Palestinian people, something the Palestinian government cannot do properly, because Israel keeps them subjugated. Yes, they do have resources they could use more wisely, fairly, and less corruptly. But they didn't do that, and Israel and the US limited the legitimate aid that could enter Palestine. So, Hammas grew strong, because Hammas was the organization could turn to in need.
Things can change in that area, if the US, Israel and the other nations work to solve the problems that create terrorist organizations, instead of shaking their sticks and thumbing their noses at those naughty, naughty terrorists.
Again, I do NOT support terrorism. But, when one is being oppressed, it's human nature to fight back, in whatever manner possible.
IF the US and Israel were willing to give Palestine a chance to live reasonably free, reasonably well-provided for lives, then they wouldn't have to face terrorists with legitimate grievances (despite the illegitimacy of their methods), and they would find more and more people turning away from the terrorist organizations, in which case they would fall from their own unsupported weight.
Short of that, yes, you're right, the terrorists would have to be negotiated with directly. But, in the end, you're going to find that except for the few nut-jobs, the results would be the same...most people are fighting because that's the only way the see to obtain the freedom and livlihoods (by this I do not mean wealth, but the ability to provide for one's basic needs) that human beings crave.
And in that, I definitely agree with you when you say "i don't think Isreal has yet negotiated in good faith."
Stephanie,
Thanks for helping me with the Irish history lesson. I should have paid more careful attention when I got my degree in History at the University of Southern Mississippi, and shame on them since it has "honors" stamped on it.
You made your point on that one and it doesnt look like we are going to reach an agreement. I consider myself pretty open minded and good points have been raised.
I haven't seen one thing that has changed my mind though. I see Israel as responding to a terror attack. Anyway, from the looks of things today there wont be much left of Hezbollah but a greasy spot if things continue the way they are going.
Sorry if that was a bit snarky....
Now I just read your comments about reconstruction- you are using what is called the Dunning school.
You might want to check out the view that Foner unvieled in the eighties, Dunning went out in the 30's....
but what do i know?
Supporting the war in Iraq and supporting Hezbollah, quite a mix, I'd say.
Thats thinking out of the box.
Steve,
"Thanks for helping me with the Irish history lesson."
You're welcome. And I don't mind snarkiness.
;-)
"You made your point on that one and it doesnt look like we are going to reach an agreement."
Agreeing to disagree is certainly a reasonable alternative to continuing a debate that cannot affect the outcome of the situation. And it's a shame the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot be resolved so easily, but alas individuals are more reasonable than the masses.
"You might want to check out the view that Foner unvieled in the eighties, Dunning went out in the 30's...."
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe you just called me a racist. If so, tsk, tsk. That's far from true. My point was that had the Northerners not intentionally pitted the freed-slaves against the Southerners as a means to gain control of them (remember, the majority of said free-slaves were uneducated, or at least under-educated and thus unfamiliar with how to govern and often ended up as puppets -- with some rather remarkable exceptions), perhaps the Southerners would not have created the KKK in reaction to the threat they felt in their newly subjugated position. I do not have any reverance for the Confederacy; they were undeniably in the wrong. However, again, when one considers the actions of another human being, taking into context their surroundings and their education is necessary.
I'll put it to you this way. Slavery is evil. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that is true. Does that make George Washington evil? I don't think so, but perhaps you'd disagree.
As far as Dunning versus Foner...I've never read either of them. I've read personal journals (written both by Southern "gentlemen," Northern soldiers and one by a freed-slave who'd been taught to read by her "owners"...but they are not in my personal library and it was too long ago for me to remember the names...remembering names is not my strong suit) and snippets in history books, including a comparison of what Lincoln is said to have intended for reconstructing the South and what actually happened.
"Supporting the war in Iraq and supporting Hezbollah, quite a mix, I'd say."
I don't support Hezbollah, or any other Islamic group that perverts Islam. I just don't hate them or villianize them, at least not the non-leaders who have very little say in the matter. Nor do I fault Islam for their actions.
No where in my post did i call you a racist. I ask you to show me any where on this page that I called you racist. I didnt imply it either. What i will say directly is that your assessment of reconstruction is outdated. In fact, it is straight out of "Gone with the Wind."
You might want to pick up Eric Foner's "Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution" and your view point about reconstruction might change.
I seem to have hijacked the thread here, so just see my profile if you want to talk about recontruction through e-mail.
Stephanie,
Check your e-mail
This has interesting to say the least.
I think the big problem is that people think like President Bush that the cause of this violence was actions by Hezbollah or HAMAS. That just set off the latest round.
I don't think we need to revisit the entire history of Israel and think we have past the point where people can question the legitimacy of Israel, but both sides have acted in bad faith. I think our problem is that we always choose sides when both sides can be in the wrong and therefore legitimize one sides actions over another. Sometimes we just need to say that both sides need a time out
Lisa,
”They were "made" to do this in some sort of self defense? I'm having a hard time buying that one.”
Israel has always had a different understanding of what constitutes self defense; consistent, but different.
”Sends the message that we in the US don't care about the lives of anyone in the middle east unless they are Israeli.”
That does seem to be the message that the president is sending. Also consistent with “our” traditional stance.
”UPDATE: Oh gee, I've been called a "moonbat", it appears via my trackback that Environmental Republican doesn't like my post. Hopefully no one will tell Karl since supposedly I'm working for him.”
And here I thought that “Environmental Republican” was an oxymoron. . .
:-]
Enjoyed a lot!
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