Friday, July 29, 2005

Forcing democracy on those who do not want it

Afghanistan still has a long way to go, probably in some ways farther than Iraq. In Iraq while no one could say Saddam Hussein was an ideal leader, women had more rights because it fit his agenda. In Afghanistan however, the Taliban ruled and women were much more under control. So while women in both Iraq and Afghanistan fight for more rights, in Iraq it is to keep what they had with the chance of some improvement; in Afghanistan it is to fight for what they did not have.

How do you force a democracy on people who cannot seem to get beyond the way things used to be? You have to hope that women like the above Washington Post article describes do not give up. That they continue despite the death threats, the burning of their homes, the attempts on their lives to stand up and demand to be included.

We have to hope that these women will somehow inspire those who are too fearful to even attempt to vote will see that it is possible. We often toss around terms like patriots and heros often in our lives, but to me? These women are true patriots.

32 comments:

Jonathan said...

Indeed they are true patriots.

How do you force freedom on a society? The same way we forced freedom here. Women and blacks were once denied basic rights in this country, and it took generations of those with courage and survival instincts to persevere. The same will be required of the women in Afghanistan and Iraq, among other places.

Steve said...

It takes a complete generation of educated people (20 years) to produce a functioning democracy.

Steve said...

One idea would be for more young people to enlist to help out, especially those youngsters who support the war.....

Me4Prez said...

Our society has always been based on all people being created equal and the battle has been to move towards that. We are dealing in Iraq and Afghanistan with societies where there is a strict social order and trying to force them to accept what we believe.

I agree. All these youngsters and their parents with the magnets should enlist to go help out. As much as I would love to see them all go and relieve my friends on their second or third tours, I think they would only be more harmful. They don't believe in liberty and equality in America and would love a more strict hierarchy where they could give themselves titles.

Steve said...

I have yet to meet one who has been willing to put their money where their mouth is. We have a lot of brash youngsters out there who talk a real mean game about Patriotism and Bush and all this other stuff. Yet they aren't willing to go over and serve. Doesn't sound like they count for too much, does it? Even Bush asked them to sign up in his last speech. Where are they?

What are they going to do? Argue about it? What's the counter argument?

If they did go, I'd have a lot more respect for them.

Lisa Renee said...

Wading back in....Okay the real people who have to take control is the Afghans and the Iraqis, it's pretty much been shown that while democracy takes between 10 to 20 years do develop it only can be done if the actual people want it. If they don't, and the majority of them are like the men who are threatening/attempting to kill these women? Doesn't matter how many soliders we send over there.

Steve said...

I agree with what Fritz Hollings wrote recently in American Prospect- are we ready for the kind of person Iraqis or Afghanis are going to elect right now? Will this serve our interests?

I'm afraid this little mess isn't going to go away any time soon....

Lisa Renee said...

I didn't read that Steve, sounds like I should, because that is another facet of this. Our idea of democracy and theirs appears to be very different.

Jonathan said...

"All these youngsters and their parents with the magnets should enlist to go help out."

Using that logic:

If someone's house is on fire, you shouldn't be quick to ask that the firefighters rush into the burning building unless you are willing to run into it yourself...right?

Besides, dipsh#t, the people with the magnets that you belittle (surprise...a condescending liberal! Boy, that never happens!) are people you know nothing about. Perhaps they have family members who did enlist and are over there. Perhaps they didn't think the war was a good idea but decided to support their country and its troops anyway. Maybe they're not depraved enough to root for their country's failure so as to score political points and be able to smugly bellow "I was right!" over their chai latt├ęs. Who knows?

You just further the perception of liberals as being reflexively hostile to military matters.

Steve said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Steve said...

This really is astonishing... Look at this....now they even have a problem with people trying to shame them into joining the military. Jeez...insane....

Steve said...

Why would anybody get angry over being asked to go join the military? That doesn't make any sense.

Where in this thread did anybody root for their own country's failure? I didn't see that.

I served my country in the United States Air Force. I'm a liberal. What's so wrong with asking a Libetarian or conservative to serve the same as I did?

Steve said...

Anyone else out there following this little exchange should check this out:

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/2005/08/if-no-one-was-fighting-battle-of-ideas.html

These guys have a great blog going. They are trying to recruit young Republicans for the military.....as far as I know, not a single taker yet!

Sorry for the multiples, Lisa, this one really, really got under my skin.....

Steve said...

One last thing, I just can't help this.....President Bush himself (in his last speech) asked people to join the military. So, we actually agree with him, and back him up, and look what happens- one of us gets called a "dipshit" by a Bush supporter. That's what you get for agreeing with Bush i guess.

Well, that's all for now, I guess I'm off to "root' for the other team. UN-Frickin-BELIEVABLE

Jonathan said...

Dammt, Steve, just when I thought you had gone away...you pop up in another blog.

Kudos to you, though, for changing your blog appearance. New profile? Suckered me into acknowledging your tripe. Works well, since your last one that had that ugly mug of yours made you look like a pug that was chasing a parked car...and caught it.

Besides, I find it damned galling that you, as a liberal, think less of patriots who choose not to serve than you think of liberals who choose not to serve and who wipe their backsides with the American flag and deride the military in which you serve. So a proud American who doesn't serve is somehow a coward, yet a liberal pot-smoking tree-hugging granola-eating hemp-wearing hippie retread who disses the military isnot a coward?

You are intellectually bankrupt, which is why you got ignored at my blog. Howsabout letting everyone know about your "American Taliban" reference, you intellectual genius, you!

You're a paranoid moonbat and a boring museum piece, so I'm moving on to the next exhibit.

Steve said...

I didn't post on your blog....

Steve said...

Dude, what is wrong with you? Why would you get all pissed off about people trying to get GOP kids to sign up? I did it, so should you. Hell, you could sign up as an officer with a degree! At least you would free someone else up to come home. Just step back and take a look at what you are saying. You are basically asking people not to join up……

Why so nasty? Why so personal? Look at the intro on your blog, you talk about calling people "Nazis, and taliban, etc..." and look at what you are doing?

Steve said...

looking back at what you wrote, I think you are confused. I have never posted on your site......

Jonathan said...

I'm confusing you with another Steve, huh? Let's see:

This other Steve was a liberal in the U.S. Air Force, who said much of the same things you've said, who was a distance runner, who had links to leftist paranoid sites like MediaMatters, who belittled people that chose not to serve (guess this pro-choice thing only extends one way, huh), etc. How on Earth could I possibly think you're the same guy, hmmm?

Jonathan said...

Don't sweat it, though, Steve. Just as I ignored the "other" Steve, I shall ignore you. Feel free to do the same in reciprocation.

Steve said...

Why don't you calm down and look at what i am saying?

So a proud American who doesn't serve is somehow a coward,

Have you ever thought of signing up? Don’t you think you should sign up and help out since you signed up?

Another question- are you a better American than me, since you are proud and you aren’t a vet but I am????

Steve said...

Also, I am a little confused since you made a very unkind remark about my physical appearence but i have never had a photo up. Just kind of confused me there.

I won't ignore you, yet...Really, i am enjoying the conversation. Why would I ignore you? What "American Taliban" remark are you accusing me of making?

Steve said...

Just for clarification- I'm not currently in the USAF, I served under Bush 1 and Reagan....

although I don't think you really care much about when I served, as you seem to be very angry.....

Steve said...

and this one is directed at the patriotic Jonathan. I really do think I am entitled to a little self defense. I've never posted on his fine blog, but here's a search for all the posts I have ever made about the Taliban at Distance:

http://www.google.com/search?q=american+taliban&ie=UTF-8&sitesearch=distanceblog.blogspot.com

and I will let folks read that and see what my thoughts about those guys are....

Lisa Renee said...

It seems we have a mistaken Steve identity happening here.

Happened to me several times, which is why I use my middle name. Right here in my own home town there was another Lisa Ward, about the same age as I was, and she was a very evil Lisa Ward, more evil than I during those early high school years. I'll never forget my 8th grade year when I walked into school hearing the rumor that I was pregnant. I was quite surprised to hear that.

Unfortunately Renee is popular too since I have met some Lisa Renee's as well. I blame my parents for not being creative enough.



:-)

Steve said...

Well, I never posted on the kids' site and I didn't understand the attack on my photo- since i have never had a photo in my profile.

I just don't understand the personal attack when i am just asking him if he thinks he should join the service????

Also, I don't smoke pot, and I couldn't be a hippie anymore if i wanted to, since I am going bald.

However, I am proud that i am a tree hugger- big time- and a liberal vet.

It doesn't take a lot to tear down an enemy, but it takes a little case to state what you are for. I hope he responds and doesn't go away.

Lisa Renee said...

I'm sure he'll be back and it will be resolved. Jonathan isn't the type to run away.

However,this is not really the way I'd like to have record comments for a post.

:-)

Steve said...

Yeah, I think I was probably a bit too tough with the way i phrased things. All due apologies to him for any hurt feelings. If he comes back he can have the last word, including any of the personal insults he hurled at me. Lisa, sorry if I soiled your pages, so there's two apologies...

Having said that, I still stand with President Bush in encouraging all young war supporters to sign up. Don't know why they get so angry about that....

Lisa Renee said...

Steve, I'm not upset with either one of you, things like this happen from time to time. I've had my more emotional responses at times in the past as well, and could very well in the future.

It means we care, which isn't such a bad thing. If we didn't care there would be no strong feelings involved.

:-)

Lisa Renee said...

And, you didn't soil my pages, I wanted this place to be one where discussion happened, so it's only natural people are going to disagree and sometimes it will get heated.

I do however, reserve the right to tease you about it later.

:-)

Gen. JC Christian, Patriot said...

Funny how jonathan never really answered Steve's question. That's too bad, I'd like to hear his excuse.

If I believed that this war was as vitally important as the right says it is, I'd sign up. That's especially true now that the military says it can't meet this year's recruiting goals. If you believe Our Leader's propaganda, it's shameful to stay home while others make sacrifices.

Those who are anti-war have a different standard to meet. They must do all they can to end this war and ensure that those who are responsible for this debacle are brought to justice.

Lisa Renee said...

I'm surprised and honored that you found my little spot in the blogosphere, so after I get over my "Wow" moment, and thank you for the enjoyment/information you have given me.

I must say,

Hertosexually yours,

Lisa Renee

:-)