I read the four page article from the Washington Post. I'll save you the effort, here's the basic summation:
Israel is sorry if it "accidently" killed that many innocent civilians as well as children but it's really not their fault. It's Hezbollah's fault and even if it was Israel's fault? They told those people to leave. So it's their fault for staying and it's their fault their children were killed. Quite a few Countries are not happy with this latest instance yet...
The UN won't do anything because the US would never allow it. Israel told the US it needs 10 to 14 days to "finish up" the destruction in Lebanon according to CNN so I'd guess magically a ceasefire would be agreed to when Israel is done.
Of course one wonders how much of Lebanon will be left if the current rate of destruction continues but I'm sure the taxpayers of the US will help pay for quite a bit of what Israel "broke".
I realize this post is very cynical but it's obvious the US will never allow Israel to face sanctions. It's obvious this doesn't seem to be stopping Hezbollah. It's also obvious that there are those here in this country including quite a few in our government who support what Israel is doing and place no value on the lives of those killed in these other nations. If I had a dollar for every comment I've read on the blogosphere about how "those" people deserved to die anyway because they were living where Hezbollah was, I'd now own my own island in the Pacific. It's ironic to me how some of us feel we have the right to wish death on people we don't even know based on some belief that by their mere geographical location they have to be terrorists or terrorist supporters.
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20 comments:
I'm feeling a bit like it takes courage to post my thoughts here, but I trust our mutual respect and I hope you will take my comments in that spirit.
I imagine that there in fact people who use the language you do and feel the emotions associated with that language when it comes to the civilians dying in Lebanon (and Israel for that matter). That some people think it's the civilians' fault, that some people - if they support what Israel is doing - therefore have no value on the lies of those killed in either nation, that some people feel they have the right to wish death, and that they actually wish death on people who they assume are terrorists because of where they live.
However, Lisa Renee, I promise you, I know many, many people - Jews of course who I am thinking of but I'm sure there are non-Jews who support Israel who fall into the categories I want to describe, who feel none of those things. And I would place myself in there as well.
How can I do that? Why do I do that? Because here is how I feel:
1. I don't believe that the people in southern Lebanon "deserve" to die because rockets are launched from their neighborhood. Their death is a shanda - a shame - on us all. They do not deserve to die and I know no one who thinks that - but I'm not speculating that there is no one who thinks that. Sadly, I can imagine that there are those who think it.
2. I value life, despite the fact that I too would not martyr my child for a Lebanese child if I lived in Israel. I know this is very, very difficult to read and to hear and to know. But what would you have me say? Let the rockets rain while my children, my family, my brethren die because Hezbollah wants us dead?
This is an untenable choice, I know, in a sane world. But it is not sane over there, and if I lived there, to pretend I'm in a sane place when I'm not? Will get my family killed.
HOWEVER, that does NOT translate into not valuing life.
And please, we must not ignore what Hezbollah followers believe and teach about life: that it is to be given for Allah in jihad. This is not a shared value in the rest of the world and it provides for people to subjugate their life to that of Allah.
3. I have never heard anyone say that they believe that they have the right to wish death on others because anyone who lives in Lebanon must be a terrorist. I'm not saying that such people don't exist - I've just never met such a person nor have I read about such people.
I can tell you that much of the anguish lifetime pacifists such as myself who now are going beyond the center to the right more than ever in their lives is caused by the knowledge that the Lebanese people are hostage to Hezbollah, the Lebanese government is hostage to Hezbollah, the world is hostage to Hezbollah - and this is what the Iranians and the jihadists preach.
This isn't me giving rhetoric. This is from the rhetoric out there already that you can see on YouTube and Yahoo News alike.
I cannot say this with enough sincerity to make it through the bytes and the wifi but to those of us who LOVE, I mean LOVE that part of the world, and all the people in it, this is, certainly in my lifetime, the most gutwrenching, heartbreaking, terrifying time that I've ever witnessed, Lisa Renee.
Please know that it cannot be boiled down to the rationalizations that you describe above. I am not saying that those rationalizations aren't used - I hate knowing that they are.
But to ascribe them broadly is to give in to the methods that cause more polarization. Only by exposing the anguish of the very very very personal emotions caused by the situation can we continue to see that the situation is NOT black and white.
And never has been.
Thank you.
Jill, Your comments are obviously heartfelt and are appreciated. I also hate that innocents must die for the politics of the region. They are truly pawns on the chessboard. Though I have often heard the Israelis express sorrow for the innocents, I have never once heard the fanatics in the Muslim world express sorrow for the innocent killed for their cause. There is no other choice if you are Jewish or American and want to survive than to kill those want to kill you first. It is a sadness brought to the world by the jihadist. They must be defeated and many innocents will die.
Manapp99
Jill, I know we have some basic differences on this issue and that's fine.
I have friends who are like family who were and still are in and have friends and family in Lebanon. They are not terrorists...they are not sub-human and they don't deserve to have their homes and their lives destroyed. Palestine has not fared any better. To me this goes way beyond what could be justified as self defense. Yet I realize there are those who feel differently.
Nor do I think it is mainly Jews who feel that way. Most of the people I've heard express this attempt at rationalizing why it is okay to kill children are not Jewish.
However I will never agree that it is acceptable to purposely target innocent civilians, especially children. If a nation any nation targets a building or a vehicle and they know there are innocents that they will injure or kill in taking out their "target" they are wrong. They are responsible because they are the ones doing the killing. It doesn't matter if you do believe it is the terrorists who don't value the life first, not valuing the life second still means the life was not held in value. Killing one of these terror "heads" doesn't stop terrorism. Another one rises up in their place. So innocents die and terrorism doesn't end. Israel continues to "defend" and they are no closer to peace, they are no closer to ending terrorism. Palestine is no closer to being free of Israel's heavy control. No one wins...and it is that that for me is the saddest part of all.
So when I read another four page article that really is the same basic article that has been written over and over again the only difference being the location of the killings, I posted...
Lisa Renee - I will not disagree with most of what you write because I basically have always felt precisely the same way.
What has changed for me?
What has changed is the obviousness to me of the goal behind that rocket coming from a civilian location: to eliminate the people living in the land currently refered to as Israel.
Again, I say, until one is actually living the life of being fired on, who can say what you would do or what you would believe or what you would want to happen?
Honestly, the incident in Seattle has had a profound effect on me. We say it can happen anywhere, but how often do we believe this?
I do, now for sure. It is a terrible confession for me. But it absolutely could happen here - three minutes down the street at the JCC complex where my kids attended camp.
I'm not sitting here writing, saying I'm proud, that I want people dead or to pay or any of that. That is not me and I don't feel that. We are, every single one of us, a casualty insome way - this world is a casualty, except to those who revel in the destruction - the destruction on both sides, because it brings them closer to jihad or brings them closer to end times or whatever.
I'm only trying to give voice to the range of emotions that even one person can feel, can contain, and trying to express just how incredibly difficult it is to face the reality of people not wanting you to live - I mean, literally, wanting you dead. Not as a casualty, but as an end in itself.
I do not believe that Israel wants Lebanese citizens dead as a general rule. That their attitude to the casualties doesn't reflect my attitude is true. That there are Israelis and maybe Jews who do hate is also probably true - I can't imagine that it isn't.
But overwhelmingly, there is no goal to rid the middle east of Lebanon in the same way that the jihadists want to rid the ME of Jews and others who support Western culture.
This is a critical difference, in my opinion.
Dead is dead. No argument there. Death doesn't distinguish between how one died or for what cause or if for no cause at all. I know this.
But again, if I lived there, if it was my kibbutz being rained on by rockets, I cannot say that I wouldn't move over the line closer to the right.
But that I would do that does not mean I do not agree with what you've written. I'm only saying that it would force me to make certain decisions that up until recently, I can't imagine even ever having to face.
Jill, I totally understand. The bombing in Lebanon has brought this closer to our home as well. Watching friends go almost crazy with worry trying to get children home that were visiting with grandparents or relatives in Lebanon was a vivid reminder of how something that seems so far away in reality is not.
What happened in Seattle was wrong, no one has the right to take another human life in a situation like that. Those innocent people in Seattle had nothing to do with any of this.
We have enough problems in the world without a few crazies deciding that they needed revenge or whatever his reasoning was. It's wrong. Nor does it solve anything, nor is there any justification for it.
Thanks for this discussion. I wish only safety and a decrease in the anxiety your friends feel, but share with them the sense that this is all so much bigger than any one of us. Perhaps it is this feeling that we are so unable to affect anything- I don't know. If you can believe it, even I'm exhausted by the topic right now. It's actually unbelievable to me that what is happening is happening. I have an extremely difficult time understanding how or why people would not question a faith that involves a concept like jihad, but I'm sure that's only because I've not ever really met people committed to Islam and don't really have much familiarity with it. I would like to but I'm not sure if, given my world view, I could ever really understand. Never say never though.
I also understand why you would be tired of it. Even my my limited involvement in this I'm tired of it. There are times I wish we could just do a giant time out and make both sides realize this is not the way and it needs to stop...
If the people working in the Twin Towers were "little Eichmans," can't the people living amongst the Hezzbollah be "little Osamas," and thus somewhat deserving of Israel's wrath? Just a thought. I know it's not very logical. But then again I'm not a tenured university professor.
I realize people might try to justify it that way anonymous. I think most of us would still disagree.
:-)
I'd go with LR on that one. Also - wanted to thank Manapp for comment. When people say that something is complicated, it's usually an excuse to not have to go into an explanation about something. But when people talk about the Middle East, it really is complicated, I think.
For not targeting Lebanese civilians, the Israeli army is sure making a bunch of "oopses"... and this isn't the first time that has happened either.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228554.stm
The Hezbollah leader is gaining more and more followers as more civilians are dying every day at the hands of Isreali "mistakes."
I suppose if Israel wipes out all of Lebanon they might get at whoever in Hezbollah is left. I guess the end justifies the means, right?
I hope to God that there is a cease-fire issued soon, and that Israel listens.
I would protect my family in those situations if I was placed in it, but I just think that the way Israel has handled the current crisis only creates more members of Hezbollah and terrorist organizations. I think more strategic special forces type operations and limited bombing would have been better than bombing the whole country. If Israel knows the southern strongholds, go in there, hit them quick, hit them hard, and minimize the damage.
But the Israeli ambassador said that the people were warned to leave and chose not to. When it was pointed out to him that many of them were poor and had no where to go and no way to get there, he then said that it was possible that the tragedy was set up by Hezbollah to happen the way it did.
He also said that Israel will help rebuild Lebanon with the help of other countries. I say they broke it, they fix it. We are spending enough of our money trying to fix the places we broke
I think it must be made clear: Despite all the confused rhetoric, the real cause of the war between Israel and its neighbors is not religion. No, the real cause is the same cause that keeps Palestinian refugees seething at the mention of the Israel. This is a political situation over land that has somehow been boiled down to religion.
It's not hard to see how we can turn from "Israel v. Lebanon" to "Jew v. Muslim." Afterall, isn't Lebanon a Muslim country and Israel a Jewish state? Oh, if only it were that simple. In this world, we have Muslims and Jews living side-by-side in more countries than just the United States and Great Britian. In fact, there are Muslims in Israel. And historically, there have been Jews who have called countries such as Iraq and Iran "home."
But over the past 68 years, it's been easier to boil this situation down to religion than to talk about land. In fact, a Hezbollah leader and elected Lebanese MP told the BBC the other day that he does not hate Jews, that this is not about religion, that this about land. Certainly, this man has studied his history. Similarly, and I think this community is an example of this, how can Jews who embrace their Muslim neighbors as friends hate the religion as a whole?
No, it is only the fanatical branch of any religion who can break down a complex political situation (that started much earlier than 1948 with deals signed and sealed by the French and British) to religion.
I would ask that both Jews and Muslims stop and look at the examples of brotherhood and find if they cannot find a solution that involves an embrace rather than a rocket. Afterall, it was only last month that the Israeli-Palestinian Peace team played in the FIFA street soccer tournament that ran concurrent with the World Cup tournament. Perhaps we can all learn from the Khmer Rouge leader who was buried last weekend with full Buddhist rituals (BBC's Reporting Religion 7/30/06).
I guess the real lesson is the one I learned from my mom: War doesn't solve a damn thing.
But here's my own lesson:
When your enemy curses your name, offer them kind words in a return.
When your enemy points a gun at you, offer them a bouquet of flowers in return.
When your enemy tries to destroy your home, offer him the seat next to you at your table.
When your enemy sets your fields on fire, offer him the fruits it once yielded.
When your enemy is hurt, offer him care and comfort.
When your enemy is starving, offer him your bread.
I think both Jews and Muslims can look to their religious texts and see how their God - the shared entity that one group calls Allah and the other Hashem - would want these to be the actions of peace. Afterall, too many have died in the name of this shared God already.
Stacy, you raise some very valid points. The land is at the very source of this and this violence by either side will not solve anything.
Thank you...
I haven't really thought of it as one religion against another, although I have probably vocalized it that way. I don't criticize the Jewish religion or the Muslim religion. And in Lebanon, they have a large Christian population.
I do think that both have extremists that make everything about religion. The problem we have is that they are the ones who get covered because they are more "interesting." Then, the rest of the world associates the extremists with the mainstream. Like Christianty here.
I agree on the religious texts. True Jihad is spiritual and not violent. And Muslims are never supposed to target civilians or buildings in armed conflict.
I don't know as much about all Jewish texts, but I am pretty sure hatred is not part of it. I read more of the Qu'ran because I studied a little African American history and because my Muslim friends were always more devout. Most of my Jewish friends didn't practice
me4prez-
The Torah is the Old Testament, the first part of the Bible and also part of the basis for Islam. If you've read the first half of your bible, you understand the shared values of all three religions. The rest is just icing on the cake. Jews have the Talmud, Christians have the New Testament and the Muslims have the Qu'ran. I've studied all three and I still have as of yet to find where it actually says in any of the three relgions "And thou shall smite thy neighbor if he be of a different religion. Smite him and his children, and use it as an excuse to fight over every little thing you can. So sayeth the Prophet Jim, prophet of War."
I think there is only one response the outside world should give to this situation. Let's call it the "UCLA Response." The Student Government of UCLA voted to officially condemn both sides of this horrible war between Israel and Hezbollah. I think Jews and Muslims everywhere need to join in with the UCLA Response. It's not enough to condemn Hezbollah if you are Jewish or to condemn Israel if you are Muslim. You must condemn both sides, for violence is violence and war is war. How much war you wage on another becomes insignificant when people on both sides are dying.
I like the UCLA response. I had a similar idea with a little more profanity than their statements probably had.
I have read my Bible several times. 12 years of Catholic school gives you a lot of opportunity to read and reread large parts of the Bible. I thought there were some differences, but I guess there are also differences between versions of everything depending on the interpreter and who it is aimed at.
Okay, so I don't know if anyone is keeping up with this thread still, but me4prez, if you are, I had a couple of thoughts to throw your way that I think you might enjoy...
1) The vast similarities among the monotheistic trio of religions would mean that not just genetically (if you go way back when) but Biblically, those fighting in the Middle East are killing their brothers. And, out of curiosity, since Jerusalem is a holy place for all three, shouldn't we find a way to share?
2) The fact that, yes the Middle East got a raw deal when GB and France divied it up. Yes, it probably wasn't the best idea for the Zionists to create Israel the way they did, but for the love of whatever god you pray to people, it's 2006. We can't go back, so let's go forward and find a way to live together.
3) That, no matter who is dying in this war, they are all dying. And death of a child hurts a Lebanese mother the same as it hurts an Israeli mother the same as it hurts a Palestinian mother.
and
4) That no matter what way you look at it, there's no future for a separate Israel and Palestine. In fact, I firmly believe that the only way toward peace is integration and the creation of a combined Israel-Palestine. After all, Israel isn't going away (and probably shouldn't. Look at the advances in agriculture and medicine Israel has brought us in the last 50 years). The Palestinians have a pretty convincing claim to the land they lived on just prior to 1948, and aren't getting very far trying to carve out a new country based on the West Bank and Gaza. And, frankly, it doesn't make much sense to keep dividing the Middle East when it's unity that could make it a region important to the world for more than just its turmoil. Of course, this obvious solution would take an understanding that it cannot be a "Jewish state" or a "Muslim state" or a "Christian state" or anything like that. Nor can it be a state without religion at its core. No, this must be a union of all religions based on the idea that all (monotheistic) religions consider this land holy. I am not against there being an Israel, I just think that in 2006 it's rediculous to think that we can have any state based on religion when religions are more fluid than ever and people are more mobile than ever. Honestly, if I could talk to the God shared by all three religions, do you think that God would tell me that he (or she, or whatever) would really like to see continued blood shed so that this land could be "Israel" or "Lebanon" or "Palestine" or what-have-you?
I'm still following the discussion too Stacy...While what you suggest makes sense and is logical, Israel does not want to be one nation with Palestine. The number of arabs/muslims would forever change Israels Jewish majority hold on power.
For the current or any Israel government to include Palestine would destroy it. While I don't agree with what Israel is doing, they are a Jewish state. Even Arab Israelis who are a minority know this. Then what about the millions who are still in refugee status? They want to come home to Palestine. Realistically they will never come home so they are landless, homeless people many born into the refugee camps where they live waiting for the day they will return to a homeland because the soil on which they were born refuses to accept them as citizens.
2002 numbers state 3.9 million...They do not have social and civil rights and for some Palestinians fighting to get the right of return as well as land they feel is rightfully theirs is a huge part of this.
The other nations of the middle east who do have financial resources are just as much to blame and they have done very little to help either the refugees or those in Palestine. Why? I believe because Palestine is the perfect propoganda tool to use to make people focus on Israel being "bad" rather than in social injustices in their own country. Sure it's bad here but in Palestine? Seems to be the message and it is used to "unite" but they really don't do anything.
Then of course our own countries role in this - So while I agree what you are writing makes sense, I don't see sense as ever coming to Palestine or Israel...
I guess, some part of me thinks borders are a really silly thing, since if we divided ourselves up so that we were really all grouped into homogenous clusters, we'd be down to neighborhoods.
I understand the desire for a Jewish state. It's no difference than the desire of Iran to be a muslim state. Of the desire of many Americans to declare this a Christan state. I do not deny, by any means, the right of anyone to practice their religion, but by mixing religion and politics, we create a very, very scary monster.
Jews are a minority where ever they are. After all, we are talking about a realtively small group of people that has been repeatedly systematically tortured and killed for their beliefs. No, of course it's not a very big religion. And, after a crazy Austrian man in charge of the German war machine decimated the European population in WWII, I can even see the desire to have a state that runs on Jewish Standard Time. Believe me. Grades Pre-K to 6 at a Jewish day school taught me a thing or two about Zionism. The problem is, the world just doesn't work like that. There are times you'll have a helluva time finding two Jews to agree on portions Rabbinic law, let alone politics.
I think there is a collective post-WWII fear that if Jews don't fight like hell, there won't be Jews to fight for in the future. I think the whole religion might be suffering from PTSD. And I think there are a lot of Muslim leaders out there who can't differentiate between Israel and Jews (since, if we want to be technical about the matter, NY is more of a Jewish State than Israel, by population). But to move forward, it's time to look for solutions that are (please forgive me for saying this) out of the box. We're looking at a piece of land that contains more than just some farms and buildings. This piece of land contains a holy city for all three monotheistic religions. We are also talking about a piece of land that every religion lays religious claim to because somewhere along the way what-ever-you-call-God apparently promised it to everybody. And then there's the British, who probably shouldn't say anything about this piece of land anymore since it made it seem like it was eventually going to be Palestine, the Muslim country, was doing damn little to stop the influx of European Jews during and after WWII. And do I really need to point out that this very piece of land had members of all three religions living on prior to 1948?
So, yes, it's a very, very messy history; and yes, there's a very scared people out there convinced that they have to fight like hell not to be destroyed. But here's the thing, the only real road to peace comes from an embrace and not from a gun - and building bigger fences, and drawing up more borders doesn't make for better neighbors. But I think anyone who watched eagerly when Rabin and Arafat shook hands remembers that. And those of us who still well up with tears when we think of PM Rabin (as I am doing right now) know full well that if he taught us nothing else, he taught us that sitting down with your enemy and coming up with a solution that sounds crazy can be a great step in the right direction.
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