The atheist vs religious battle is once again the topic of many diaries at Kos. The never ending discussion of are we a Christian Nation. Once again the treaty of Tripoli is being trotted out as "proof" that the United States is not a Christian Nation. Once again? Everything else written that doesn't prove that point? Ignored. If you look at the other treaties written/signed during that time period, here are their "Article 11" statements and if they mention God.
1787 - Treaty with Monoco:
In the name of Almighty God,
11. If we shall be at War with any Christian Power and any of our Vessels sail from the Ports of the United States, no Vessel belonging to the enemy shall follow untill twenty four hours after the Departure of our Vessels; and the same Regulation shall be observed towards the American Vessels sailing from our Ports.-be their enemies Moors or Christians.
1795 - Treaty with Algiers:
11. All Ships of War belonging to the United States of North America on Anchoring in the Ports of ye Regency shall receive the Usual presents of Provisions & Refreshments Gratis should any of the Slaves of this Regency make their Escape on board said Vessels they shall be immediately returned no excuse shall be made that they have hid themselves amongst the People and cannot be found or any other Equivocation.
1796 - Treaty with Tripoli:
11. As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
1797 - Treaty with Tunis:
God is infinite.
Under the auspices of the greatest, the most powerful of all the princes of the Ottoman nation who reign upon the earth, our most glorious and most august Emperor, who commands the two lands and the two seas, Selim Khan I the victorious, son of the Sultan Moustafa, whose realm may God prosper until the end of ages, the support of kings, the seal of justice, the Emperor of emperors.
The most illustrious and most magnificent Prince Hamuda Pasha, Bey, who commands the Odgiak of Tunis, the abode of happiness; and the most honored Ibrahim Dey; and Suleiman, Agha of the Janizaries and chief of the Divan; and all the elders of the Odgiak; and the most distinguished and honored President of the Congress of the United States of America, the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of the Messiah, of whom may the end be happy.
11. When a vessel of war of the United States of America shall enter the port of Tunis, and the Consul shall request that the castle may salute her, the number of guns shall be fired which he may request; and if the said Consul does not want a salute, there shall be no question about it. But in case he shall desire the salute, and the number of guns shall be fired which he may have requested, they shall be counted and returned by the vessel in as many barrels of cannon powder. The same shall be done with respect to the Tunisian corsairs when they shall enter any port of the United States.
1805 - Treaty of Tripoli:
11. The Commerce between the United States of America and the Regency of Tripoli; The Protections to be given to Merchants, Masters of Vessels and Seamen; The reciprocal right of establishing Consuls in each Country; and the priviledges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such Consuls, are declared to be on the same footing, with those of the most favoured Nations respectively.
So we have two treaties that mention God, one the Treaty of Tunis states "...President of the Congress of the United States of America, the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of the Messiah" and the Treaty of Tripoli's "government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion". In 1805 as you can see when the treaty with Tripoli was re-done? Article 11 was changed. It's also obvious what the intent of Article 11 is in all the treaties. So whether you agree the US is or is not a Christian Nation? Keep the treaties in historical perspective. Using one as "proof" yet ignoring all of the others written during the same time period shows you are not really interested in the "truth", just trying to promote your version of it.
:-)
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9 comments:
To quote "Jushua" from War Games (as I remember it), "The only winning move is not to play."
"How about a nice game of chess?"
There is a lot of wisdom in that approach...
Nice post. Very interesting compilation.
One of the most awesome things about the internet is the availability of reference material when it comes to history. While I've always been a history geek, anyone can read most of the old treaties and information. I've spent hours at Yale's Avalon site but I realize most people don't do that.
History is just like anything else, if taken out of context you can make it appear to be something it's probably not. So many people want to be right so they pick whatever they can to make their point.
I'd love to be right, but it's more important to me to try to be accurate. People need to see both sides and make up their own mind.
I used to be on the chess club HT...
:-)
Uh Oh...
;-)
Hey Lisa, not to be combative, but you're cherry picking too. I would not choose to point at any particular treaty as "proof" of whether we are a religious nation. Why? Because treaties are written for political reasons to do with a relationship with another country. I can cherry pick the writings of many of our founding fathers, including Jefferson and Paine to "prove" that we were not founded as a Christian nation. I could do the same in reverse with other Revolutionaries (Sam Adams, Patrick Henry, for example) to "prove" the reverse. The real thing to recognize is that the Founders created a government based on the idea of the sovereign individual. And the sovereign individual was to be left in peace to decide his own religious views, or lack thereof (that is the meaning of the First Amendment, distilled to its basics). Our government was designed to be neither religious nor atheist, but rather to be a vehicle to protect your liberty to choose that for yourself. The key problem here is that "true believers" of both stripes wish to use the government to promote their true beliefs.
Personally, I just want the government out of the entire debate, in either direction.
Oh yeah, HT, I was in the chess club too.
Eric, not to be combative back but that is all of the treaties from that time period. If you go to Yale's Avalon site you'll see that. That's why I did what most of these people who use one treaty don't do, I listed a link to each treaty for anyone who wants to read them in full. What I was doing was listing all of the Article 11's and any reference to God. That was not to demonstrate anything except both sides were clearly present.
Now if I would have tried to use the treaty from Tunis or Monoco as some type of proof of the whole Christian Nation Concept? Then I would be cherry picking.
I just get tired of the whole Treaty of Tripoli used as some major document when in reality? It was far from that.
Looks like we have some chess clubbers happening...
:-)
What I meant was, by using just one sort of document, and one that is meant as a political instrument between two countries, rather than a political constitution of a single country, you are cherry picking in order to support your position. What I was really trying to point out is that the goal of our Founders was to create a neutral government. Both sides (not saying you are on either of those sides) that try to win their "our nation is X" argument are distorting history and the underlying first principles of our Founders. They expressed those first principles for us quite clearly in three documents: the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution and the Federalist Papers. If you read them carefully, you find that their goal was neutrality on religion.
And, of course, part of this argument is silly (again, not meaning you specifically). When folks say "christian nation", what they really mean to say, I suspect, is christian government. Are we a christian nation? Well, given that 90%, or so, of our population is some variety of christian, yes, of course. Do we have a christian government? No, and that's a totally different thing.
Eric, You are right I didn't compare other documents, I focused on just the treaties. Else I would have written a huge novel that a few people would have said looked interesting but was too long to read (lol)
Most people don't read the early documents. Which is a shame because how can they really know what should be happening if they don't know how our goverment was designed...
So I do plead guilty as to that cherry picking.
:-)
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